Niz Maharaj by david godman.org

I love Niz's rambunctiousness and shouting it suits my loud personality hahahahaha David: There may have been others but the only other one I know about, since I witnessed it first-hand, was a Canadian – at least I think he was Canadian – called Rudi. I had listened to some tapes before I first went to Maharaj and this man Rudi featured prominently on them. I have to say that he sounded utterly obnoxious. He was pushy, argumentative and aggressive; apparently Maharaj threw him out on several occasions. I had never met Rudi; I only knew him from the tapes I had heard. Then one day Maharaj announced, 'We have a jnani coming to visit us this morning. His name is Rudi.' I laughed because I assumed that Maharaj was making fun of his pretensions to enlightenment. Maharaj could be quite scathing about people who claimed to be enlightened, but who weren't. Wolter Keers, a Dutch advaita teacher, was someone who fell into that category. Every so often he would come to Bombay to see Maharaj, and on every visit Maharaj would tell him off for claiming to be enlightened when he wasn't. On one visit he started lecturing Wolter before he had even properly entered the room. There was a wooden stairway that led directly into the room where Maharaj taught. As Wolter's head appeared above the top step, Maharaj suspended his other business and started laying into him. 'You are not enlightened! How dare you teach in the West, claiming that you are enlightened?' On one of my other visits Wolter was due to arrive and Maharaj kept asking when he was going to appear. 'Where is he? I want to shout at him again. When is he going to arrive?' On that particular visit I had to leave before Wolter came so I don't know what form the lecture took, but I suspect that it was a typically hot one. Anyway, let's get back to Rudi. When Maharaj announced that a 'jnani' was due, I assumed that Rudi was going to get the Wolter treatment. However, much to my amazement, Maharaj treated him as the genuine article when he finally showed up. After spending a good portion of the morning wondering when Rudi was going to appear, Maharaj then asked him why he had bothered to come at all. 'To pay my respects to you and to thank you for what you have done for me. I am leaving for Canada and I came to say goodbye.' Maharaj didn't accept this explanation: 'If you have come to this room, you must have some doubt left in you. If you were doubt-free, you wouldn't bother to come at all. I never visit any other teachers or Gurus because I no longer have any doubts about who I am. I don't need to go anywhere. Many people come to me and say, "You must visit this or that teacher. They are wonderful," but I never go because there is nothing I need from anyone. You must want something you haven't got or have a doubt to come here. Why have you come?' Rudi repeated his original story and then kept quiet. I was looking at him and he seemed to me to be a man who was in some inner state of ecstasy or bliss that was so compelling, he found it hard even to speak. I still wasn't sure whether Maharaj was accepting his credentials, but then the woman he had arrived with asked Maharaj a question. Maharaj replied, 'Ask your friend later. He is a jnani. He will give you correct answers. Keep quiet this morning. I want to talk to him.' It was at this point that I realised that Maharaj really did accept that this man had realised the Self. Rudi then asked Maharaj for advice on what he should do when he returned to Canada. I thought that it was a perfectly appropriate question for a disciple to ask a Guru on such an occasion, but Maharaj seemed to take great exception to it. 'How can you ask a question like that if you are in the state of the Self? Don't you know that you don't have any choice about what you do or don't do?' Rudi kept quiet. I got the feeling that Maharaj was trying to provoke him into a quarrel or an argument, and that Rudi was refusing to take the bait. At some point Maharaj asked him, 'Have you witnessed your own death?' and Rudi replied 'No'. Maharaj then launched into a mini-lecture on how it was necessary to witness one's own death in order for there to be full realisation of the Self. He said that it had happened to him after he thought that he had fully realised the Self, and it wasn't until after this death experience that he understood that this process was necessary for final liberation. I hope somebody recorded this dialogue on tape because I am depending on a twenty-five-year-old memory for this. It seems to be a crucial part of Maharaj's experience and teachings but I never heard him mention it on any other occasion. I have also not come across it in any of his books. Maharaj continued to pester Rudi about the necessity of witnessing death, but Rudi kept quiet and just smiled beatifically. He refused to defend himself, and he refused to be provoked. Anyway, I don't think he was in any condition to start and sustain an argument. Whatever state he was in seemed to be compelling all his attention. I got the feeling that he found articulating even brief replies hard work. Finally, Rudi addressed the question and said, 'Why are you getting so excited about something that doesn't exist?' I assumed he meant that death was unreal, and as such, was not worth quarrelling about. Maharaj laughed, accepted the answer and gave up trying to harass him. 'Have you ever had a teacher like me?' demanded Maharaj, with a grin. 'No,' replied Rudi, 'and have you ever had a disciple like me?' They both laughed and the dialogue came to an end. I have no idea what happened to Rudi. He left and I never heard anything more about him. As they say at the end of fairy stories, he probably lived happily ever after. davidgodman.org of course

ajativada is not anutpada, which is Saguna

I was the first to enter ajativada on wikipedia in 2005 but until recently when it was interloped or edited by buddhists and perhaps some muslims it was strictly Vedantic....now the Buddhistic stuff about Gaudapad is erroneous as it doesn't mention that he mentions ajativada in the pre buddhist upanishads and rig veda....My quotes and references to the Rig Veda and Upanishads were deleted to make it appear that Gaudapad got the idea from the Buddhist which is untrue.............Tony.TRUE AJATIVADA IS NOT NIRVANA BUT PARANIRVANA..T. There is a difference.T. Slight attachment by subtle body..Nis. When one gives up the ego and the Self destroys it, if one is a Mukta. The SElf uses the vijanamayakosa of the Mukta as the mind. The mukta is now one with the life force...but a body still exists to teach...However like Sri Lakshmana Swamy the next step is PARANIRVANA,,,,Where the mind and body are dropped and all connection with the Saguna Self and one becomes NirGuna.....t

Buddha-This unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed,

There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. [12] **************************************************************************************************************************************************************8 "Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed." [13] *************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** This is the nearest buddhism can get to ajativada but it still indicates '\something uncreated' which is more similar to the concept of Saguna not Nirguna as nirguna can only be described by what it is not...*************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** Tony O'Clery reference---http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel_buddha/ *************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** The Gospel of Buddha reluctant-messenger.com The Gospel of the Buddha: Compiled from ancient records by Paul Carus, 1894 This is where the buddhists who have taken it on themselves to debate my piece fall down as they cannot grasp ajativada.

Ajativada

Ajativada. Vedantic, not Later Buddhistic. It is not the same thing as the Buddhist Anutpada,, which the Buddhist for some reason present as ajativada..(.However Anutpada, or secondary, could equate with the Buddha's unborn...or Saguna Brahaman, in Vedanta. Ajativada means a changeless appearance when in fact it means 'NOTHING EVER HAPPENED AT ALL INCLUDING THE APPEARANCE'. "David Godman, - Nothing ever happened"...Advadhuta Foundation Colorado.1998.1/May.ISBN 0963802259. AN APPEARANCE WOULD NEED A CAUSE/MIND AND THERE IS NO DIRECT CAUSE, ...I WAS THE FIRST TO POST THIS SUBJECT on wikipedia IN 2005. The whole concept of creation is immaginary.It all arose with vrittis, modifications, occurring in the universal mind or akasa which is where the feeling IAm or ego arose.Beyond Akasha is Vital Force or Energy or Saguna Brahman,which provides the Pranas for creation but is not them. Beyond all this is Nirguna Brahman, which negates everything including the so called concept of appearance..As mentioned in David Godman's book...Nothing ever happened. ********************************************************************************\ ***************** In the Vedic Nasadiya Sukta. 10:129. The first linr reflects Ajativada , "Then even nothingness was not ,nor existence". This was multi thousand years before Buddhism,and the night sky in the Rig Veda is 8000 Bce. This sUkta reflects 'ajAtavAda'. This is further elaborated by the word 'visRShTiH' which raises a doubt upon 'creation'. This also is again in perfect tuning with Sri Raman's assertion; 'Where-from this 'visRShTi' came into being? And once again, 'visRShTi' itself can be interpreted according to Vedik Grammar as 'chaos' or 'appearances'. *********************************************************************************************** This indicates Gaudapada had no need to learn from the Buddhists more likely the other way around.He also referred to Ajativada in the Upanishads never mind the Rig. The other problem the Buddhists have is their original scriptures were just that, written down. As opposed to the Vedantic which were oral going back literally thousands of years and it is a well known fact psychologically that memorised texts are less likely to editing and interlopation; So are more accurate. The Sanskrit term Ajativada is one of several alternately-held creation theories in Advaita Vedanta, meaning "non-creation" (of the world). It is not the same thing as the Buddhist Anutpada, which the Buddhist for some reason spuriously present as ajativada... ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************* *************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** Taken together "ajātivāda" means "the Doctrine of no-origination"[1] or non-creation.]Anutpada does not mean the same thing as Ajativada as the Gautama Buddha himself talks about a 'something' whereas in Ajativada there is only the negative or NirGuna.This is a common error of understanding in some advaitins and especially Buddhists. Taken together "anutpāda" means "having no origin", "not coming into existence", "not taking effect", "non-production".[web 2] This infers a 'something' whereas Ajativad has only the negative -nothing. Contemporary Advaitins translate the concept of Ajativada also with the phrase "nothing ever happened", or "not even the appearance of creation exists".[citation needed] That is to say, not even the unreality of the world "exists". This is pointed at with the question "Where does the world go in deep sleep, turiya, nirvikalpa samadhi and nirvikalpa sahaja samadhi/meditation?" ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** In Advaita, there are three creation theories:[web 3] Srishti-drishti-vada: what is created is being perceived. The universe is held to be created by the Brahman in his capacity as Ishwara. Srishti (creation) is therefore prior to Drishti (perception). A thing has to exist for it to be perceived.[web 3] Drishti-srishti-vada: perception is simultaneous with creation Ajativada: creation is not an absolute real event. It actually never "happened". Ajativada implies that searching for a source of the origin of the world in a Creator is futile. ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************* As stated in Gaudapada’s Karika Chapter II Verse 48:[web 4] No jiva ever comes into existence. There exists no cause that can produce it. The supreme truth is that nothing ever is born.[web 5] ***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8 Shankara Adi Shankara wrote: On account of constant absorption in Brahman, freed from the sense of reality of external objects, only seemingly enjoying them when offered by others, like a sleepy baby, perceiving the world as that seen in a dream and recognising it only now and then, such a man is indeed rare. He is the enjoyer of the fruits of untold merit and is truly held blessed and revered on earth.[9] [edit]Ramana Maharshi The twentieth-century Sage Ramana Maharshi was an articulate adherent to the concept of Ajativada. On Sri Ramana's view, Ajativada or non-creation is a part of the highest form of consciousness that can be attained. Sri Ramana described three consecutive steps, each of which corresponds to a different understanding of reality: Somebody or some god created the world The world arises simultaneously with our perception of it Ajativada, the view that the world never happened at all.[10] *****************************************************************************************************************************8 Sadhu Om, a chronicler and devotee of Ramana wrote, At times Sri Ramana Maharshi used to reveal some information which was not given by the scriptures and Puranas such as: how, in the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna began His teachings with the doctrines of Ajata and Advaita, but then condescendingly came down to various stages of Dvaita, and how He carefully used words which, though suited to Arjuna's limited grasping power, also gives room for well-ripened aspirants to discover, even now, the motive behind those words.***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8 Nisargadatta Maharaj Nisargadatta Maharaj's main teaching was that all was consciousness, and that consciousness was awareness interfaced with manifestation and using energy or prana.[11]. He distinguished three levels of discenrment: Individuals begin with first believing they are making things happen; Then they realise that things are in fact happening to them; Then finally they realise that nothing is happening at all.[12]******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************88 "I am trying to tell you ---Give up all this trash, whatever you are studying in the name of religion , in the name of spirituality. Understand only one thing -That godly principle is there..that 'I amness', or consciousness-that is godliest of principles. It is there as long as the vital breath or life force is there." Nisargadatta .Maharaj.'I am that'. "Be still, and know that 'I am', (is) God" (Psalm 46:10), Before Abraham was 'I Am'-----Jesus..............Bible and New Testament. ************************************************************************************************************************************* The Buddhist Meditation of vipassana, or observing the rise and fall of created or compounded things and the development of insight, is an indication of the unreality of the so-called 'creation'.[citation needed] Similar teachings can be found withf the Sufis, like Din Attar, Ibn Arabi, Jalala'din Rumi, Al Hussein Ibn Al-Mansour, Hadrat Muinudin Chisti, Al-Hallaj[citation needed], other Indian saints such as Kabir, Guru Nanak, and Christian mystics such as St John of the Cross, St Theresa de Avila and many more, most of whom were really considered out of the main steam, by their peers. ********************************************************************************************************************************************8 Advaita discerns levels of truth. It is at the level of the highest truth (paramārtha) that there is no origination.[4] [edit]Ontological levels of Reality Advaita took over from the Madhyamika the idea of levels of reality.[13] Usually two levels are being mentioned[14], but Shankara uses sublation as the criterion to postulate an ontological hierarchy of three levels:[15][web 6] Pāramārthika (paramartha, absolute), the absolute level, "which is absolutely real and into which both other reality levels can be resolved".[web 6] This experience can't be sublated by any other experience.[15] Vyāvahārika (vyavahara), or samvriti-saya[14] (empirical or pragmatical), "our world of experience, the phenomenal world that we handle every day when we are awake".[web 6] It is the level in which both jiva (living creatures or individual souls) and Iswara are true; here, the material world is also true. Prāthibhāsika (pratibhasika, apparent reality, unreality), "reality based on imagination alone".[web 6] It is the level in which appearances are actually false, like the illusion of a snake over a rope, or a dream. ************************************************************************************************************************************* ]Levels of Vedanta Ajativada apllies at the highest level of truth, which is also called "Para-Advaita"[citation needed][note 3], comprising a fourth level of Vedanta: Dvaita - duality Visishtadvaita - partial duality Advaita - nonduality Para-Advaita - respectively and finally above non-duality.[note 4] [edit]Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman Main articles: Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman Four levels of awareness or truth can be discerned:[citation needed] Small Ego/Ahamkara - 'I am' Big 'I Am' consciousness of Siva/Sakti-Prana Pure Awareness of SaGuna Brahman Ultimate Truth as NirGuna Brahman. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Y.K. Menon, for Sankara the goal of Advaita Vedanta is knowledge of the non-duality of Atman and Brahman, thereby realising Sat-Cit-Ananda, or Being, Consciousness, Bliss.[citation needed] According to Ramana Maharshi these are actually qualities, and therefore attributes and still within illusion. In other words not Nirguna Brahman[note 5], but still Saguna Brahman.[citation needed][note 6] According to another interpretation, the realisation of Saguna Brahman and Nirguna is simultaneous, unless the person is a Bhakta/Devotee of some 'God Figure' and a believer in form.[citation needed] On the Pralaya or Dissolution of the Universe, it is Saguna Brahman, or Awareness, that 're-manifests' the universe, and not Nirguna Brahman. This is due to the seeds of manifestation being still present in subtle form or in potentiality, while the material is dissolved in Maha-Pralaya or the Great Dissolution.[citation needed]Pralaya Absolutely seen, Saguna Brahman is ultimately an illusion that never ever happened, Nirguna Brahman being or the only Truth. This can be compared in Vedantic Meditation to Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi (temporary realisation) and Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi (permanent Moksha). A person doing Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is at the temporary stage.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glossary of Sanskrit Terms used in this article----- Atman = the individual being, identical with Brahman ---------------------- Jiva = Individual being ------------------------------- Advaita = Non-dual ------------------------------ Dvaita = dual -------------------------------- Visishtadvaita = Non-dual with distinction ---------------------------------------- Ajativada = non-creation, ---------------------------------- Bhakta = Devotee, --------------------------- Brahman = Pure Consciousness. -------------------- Saguna Brahman = Brahman along with Maya, as Creator of the Universe ----------------- Mukta = a free/realised person.------------------ ------------------- Nirguna Brahman = Pure Consciousness. Nir=Nil and Guna=modes; so "beyond all mind". ----------------------- Nirvikalpa Samadhi = where subject-object division is not there; no mind, no modification. --------------------- Sat-Cit-Ananda = Existence-Consciousness-Limitlessness, ---------------------- Pralaya = Dissolution or resolving of the Universe, ----------------------- Maha-Pralaya = Dissolution of the material and subtle universe, --------------- Para = Above/beyond, ---------------------------- Para-advaita = beyond non duality itself ----------------------- Vedanta = The concluding portions of the Vedas, the teachings of the Upanishads, ------------------------------ Turiya = Fourth State --------------------------------- Sahaja = natural meditation, permanent state of NirVikalpa Samadhi ---------------------------------- Sakshin = Witness, ------------------------------- Siva/Sakti = Consciousness/Universal Energy, --------------------------- Jiva = The individual, ----------------------------- Mukti = Freedom, liberation --------------------------------------- Manas = Mind, one of the four faculties of the antahkarana(the other three being buddhi, cittam and ahamkara) ------------------------------------ Vasanas = past impressions of the mind. ------------------------------ ^ The term is also used in the Lankavatara Sutra.[5] According to D.T Suzuki, "anutpada" is not the oppiste of "utpada", but transcends opposites. It is the seeing into the true nature of existence[6], the seeing that "all objects are without self-substance".[7] ^ C.q. "transitory" ^ The term is used in Kashmir Shaivism, meaning "the supreme and absolute non-dualism".[web 7] ^ Gaudapada too states that, from the absolute standpoint, not even "non-dual" exists. Para-Advaita[8] ^ "The Absolute without qualities", the ultimate transcendental, indescribable 'Beyond' ^ "The Absolute with qualities", being or 'Consciousness' associated with 'manifestation'************************************************************************************************************************************************* ]Published references ^ The Crest-Jewel of Discrimination', Mohini M. Chaterjee, The Theosophical Publishing House, Adyar, 1932. Verse 426 ^ David Godman (1986), Be as you are. The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi. London and New York, Arakana ^ 'I am that' ^ 'I am That', Acorn Press. N.C. 1999 ^ Renard 2010, p. 130. ^ a b Renard 2010, p. 131. ^ ^ Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit, Utpāda ^ Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit, Anutpāda ^ a b Ajativada – the missing link ^ Mandukya Upanishad with Gaudapada's Karika ^ a b c d advaita-vision.org, Discrimination ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************* Sources Bhattacharya, Vidhushekhara (1943), Gauḍapādakārikā, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass Chatterji, Mohini M. (1973), Viveka-Cudamani, Adyar: Chennai Dikshit, Sudhaker S. (1999), I Am That. Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Durham, N.C.: Acorn Press Godman, David Godman (1986), Be As You Are: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi, London: Arakana, pp. 181–3, 184 Hart, William (1987), Vipassana Meditation as taught by S.N. Goenka, San Francisco: Harper and Row Puligandla, Ramakrishna (1997), Fundamentals of Indian Philosophy, New Delhi: D.K. Printworld (P) Ltd. ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** Creation theories in Advaita Vedanta Swami Atmananda website Sri Ramana Maharshi website Gaudapada on Mandukya Upanishad Nisargadatta Maharaj website Sanskrit words and phrases